ALEXANDRO JODOROWSKY


For a Mutation of the Human Consciousness

"You are excrement. You can change yourself into gold ", Alejandro Jodorowsky explains in his film The Holy Mountain. Because Jodorowsky the alchemist uses his work as an athanor. The initiation is made up of films (Fando & Lys, El Topo, Santa Sangre...), of strip cartoons (L’ Incal, created with Moebius, La Caste des Métabarrons, created with Giménez...), of books and of the Tarot. Alexandro Jodorowsky indeed dispenses the philosophy of the Tarot each Wednesday in a Parisian cafe, just to help those who suffer. The poet sows the seeds of consciousness. This interview took place a few minutes before one of these readings.

blueberry, BLUEBERRY, jean giraud, JEAN GIRAUD, MOEBIUS, moebius,

Could you tell us something about the Tarot ?
The origins of the Tarot remain unknown. We only know that it already existed in he 13th Century.

I’ve seen you reading the cards before and I noticed that it could help people.
Yes, it helps people, otherwise they wouldn’t come. And it is not a crime to try to help people. It has nothing to do with being self-centered. And it doesn’t mean that you take yourself for a magician or a guru. It is just being someone good who wants to help other people - you suffer when you see people suffering. There is no mystery. The Tarot, just like life in general, has an air of magic. Life is not something rational. For example, for at least 8 hours a day you enter into a world made of dreams.

In a book dealing with the mutations humanity can expect, one can read about the mutations that Chernobyl brings on. There’s also an interview in that book in which you explain how to control dreams. Your work is dealing with the mutation of our consciousness. Which form will this mutation take ?
The Chernobyl mutations that you mentioned are negative mutations. But you can find positive mutations too. We should work to create a mutation in the spirit of common people. Because they make the world go round, they vote and make war, and not the politicians they’ve chosen. Don’t you think it would be good to take care of the masses ? I’m not going to change the world. I intend to begin to change it. Nobody can change the world. But we can start changing it.

After your rets.
Bueno. It seems to be surrealistic because these acts are not rational. I give them a metaphor in order to talk to their unconscious. And the unconscious is not something rational, it is surrealistic. It doesn’t obey the laws of daily life. Everyday life is surrealistic. I just read in the paper that a twin riding a bicycle was crushed by a truck two days ago. And two hours later in the same place his brother was crushed by another truck. It is absolutely surrealistic. Every day life is made of miracles, weird and inexplicable events. There is no borderline between reality and magic.

Are you satisfied by the way our societies are dealing with reality ?
It’s different in every country. Let’s just say that in France there is a very unpleasant situation. France is a very cartesian and annoying country where the spirit is awfully decadent. There is a literary and even philosophical decline. You only have to watch television, or read successful books, that cleverly deal with sex and nothing else. I find it very sad.

Do you have any projects at the moment ?
I don’t have any projects. I act instinctively. I work peacefully on plays, exhibits, twenty books at the same time. I am preparing two or three or four films. I’m trying to make a film entitled Abel & Caïn. Cinema depends on economics and it is hard to find funding to make the films I want to make. But the arrival of DV cameras has changed the rules and given indie film makers the opportunity to produce their own films. This is the birth of a new way of expressing ourselves, that will make us forget the industrial production.

You are also interested in poetry.
Poetry is my main interest, I am passionately fond of it. You can find a real poetic revolution on a planetary level. Some young people publish poetry. They communicate thanks to networks, exactly like terrorists do. But poetry remains confidential and not industrial.

How do you see the future of humanity ?
Human kind will live as many years as the universe. It will live until the end of the universe. It is its goal. It will then be acknowledged by the whole universe and will become its consciousness. Then it will create another universe.

You are one of the few artists that have a large audience who dares to illuminate people with fulguration.
Why should I try to touch people through politics ? I am not interested in political revolution, I am only interested in poetic revolution. Why shouldn’t I try to touch people by spiritual means ? I have a spirit. I can feel it. Why should I limit myself to being a rational being when I feel my unconscious is as big as an ocean ? And why should I see myself as limited when I feel that my thoughts are unlimited ? Why should I consider myself as having been defined when I feel indefinable ?

Will this new way of thinking engender new politics, a new ecology ?
Who knows ? I am the wheels of an infinite gearing. But here I am.

You may have become aware of it in a strong way than other people ?
You shouldn’t think someone like me wants to compare himself to anyone. I would be a despicable person. I could never say that I rank over the others. I don’t have the spirit of a champion. I have the spirit of a Saint, a Saint Citizen who has nothing to do with religion. I am looking for holiness first of all. Not for sexual holiness, but spiritual holiness. When you are looking for holiness you can’t believe you rank over the others. And I don’t think I am different either. Because I know my essence, at least I think I know it. And by believing I know my essence, I can feel it. And by feeling it, in my own way, I feel it in others. Then I feel equal to any being. I feel the supreme equality, I feel a union with everything.

Do you think French people feel it too ?
I can’t see French people, I can only see human beings. "French" is only the superficial part, nobody’s "French". Above all, we’re human beings, we must go right to the essential. The most simple looks for us. What we’re looking for seeks us out. The Grail doesn’t look for Christ’s blood, the Grail receives the Holy Blood and then pours it either into the lips of a believer, or onto the ground. The Chinese say : "Perceptible toward the sky and active toward the ground". We are receptacles designed for giving, not made for keeping.

Designed to be dissolved ?
We’re like clouds. It is the tangible which gets dissolved. Consciousness cannot be dissolved because it’s not physical.

Is it eternal ?
In a way, yes, it is. But the individual is not. The laws of the universe are everlasting, and that is consciousness. So, inside me there is eternity as inside you. Nothing is being dissolved.

Is there a transformation of the soul ?
There is a blossoming. The soul opens itself, it doesn’t get altered. The seed flowers. The soul is like the plant. If we are exhaustive with our soul, consciousness is immutable. It doesn’t obey alteration, because it’s both out of space and out of time. If the soul were part of both space and time, it would change. What is called consciousness is the conscious nucleus. This nucleus cannot change, it is immutable over thousands of years, from so called birth until so called death and beyond. Immutable. Elementary my dear Watson.

Logical...
As soon as we’re using words, we’re in the field of logic. But truth has never been words. If you want to find the truth and get inside the real world, then you have to leave words. The intellect is made up of words, the mind isn’t. It’s an energy that gains its strength in complete silence.

In a few minutes you’ll be reaching the broad mass of French people...
You insist on considering France. You know, there are Italians, Germans, Chileans, there are all sorts of nationalities. As long as we see the world through a single language and through a single nationality, we’re restricted. We have to be of multinational and multilingual. Languages, nationalities and traditions are a prison - we have to free ourselves from them. Countries are like children who must grow up until becoming an only planet. The Basques, Palestinians, Israelis etc... those people who struggle for their own little identification, my God it’s... This very civilization is nonsense. We’re going to throw it into the trashbins of history. All these restrictions make us choose politicians who suit us well. Nobody believes in politicians anymore. We have to vote for vile people, so do I. They’re all as vile as one another. There are gangsters and thieves. Nobody believes in them, or admires them, or likes them. And they would like to make you vote for them, knowing nevertheless that they are the puppets of the economy and that behind it all, there are the bankers. It has to change, it’s pitiful. Masks have fallen down. They are the servants of a sick and criminal economy. Each one of them has to give his little ounce of dream to collective consciousness.

How did you react to attacks on Sept 11th ?
I was absolutely against both sides. The US has given birth to a golem and the golem has risen up against it. And now we’re all paying for this situation, an appalling situation on both sides. We should bombard Israel and Palestine with a rain of poems that say : "That’s enough, pack of silly buggers, that’s enough, stop it, this is foolish". And we have to do it on both sides. These wars, just like those who are making them, are stupid and useless. The Good, the Evil, we’re not in the middle ages anymore ! The stock market system is stupid, the banking system is stupid, the concept of money is stupid. We have to change money. We must change the whole system. Wherever you go, you have to sow grains of consciousness, anytime, anywhere. It is mostly those who have studied who have to do it. Those who haven’t studied won’t do it. It is those who have cultivated their mind who talk like I do. If I were a commuter, engulfing myself into rap music as the only social response ever possible, I wouldn’t talk that way. First of all, you have to develop your own self. I’ve been looking for people who have a higher level of awareness than I have. And that’s the reason why I got closer to the Tarot. Tarot is a tool which opens up consciousness. I also got closer to martial arts, poetry and theatre, closer to anything that could push my limits away. It is a way of survival. In the past, I wanted to be a master, now I only want to be an eternal student. And everything I want for me, I want for the others. Sometimes, the others can’t have what I have, because I have the talent and the imagination. I’ve spent years trying to elaborate them. I’ve fought against poetry, language, style, against everything. But I also think anybody can do something with what he is and what he’s got. We have to battle for a mutation of the thinking and for a reassessment of moral standards. Ask me a last question.

How can we end this interview ?
The best way to finish something is finishing it... But I would say that nothing ever ends. Everything carries on. Our paths have met. You’re going to follow your own path and I’m going to follow mine. We are not born, we don’t die. Everything is continuation. Since you alluded to the world’s future, have a look at this laid-back cat. If anybody were happy as this cat, then everything would be fine. There are moments of peace in this world, like this cat. If there is a moment of peace, it means that it exists.

Peace can be true, we have evidence of it...
The evidence - here it is - you see here we have a miracle. Look at the pleasure that this cat has in communicating with a human being. I’m not his master, I’m only a human being. It could take exactly the same pleasure with you. Do you want to see ? Take the cat...You see... Stroke it... Here it is, it’s yours. Peace is yours.

Alexandro Jodorowsky, La Danse de la réalité, Albin Michel

Alexandro Jodorowsky, Symbolique du tarot, CD ROM, Emeria

 
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